While we used this podcast to further share wisdom research, what’s the potential here for bad actors creating AI content for curating and distributing misinformation? How do we encourage students and teachers to use AI ethically in their work instead of a replacement for learning or educating? How do we use the technology to advance society while also protecting human ideas and the sanctity of knowledge information? At this rate of advancement, can we? Or is too late already?
While I personally wish I had answers, what I have right now are more questions—and an entertaining and informative podcast as a thought experiment.
Take a listen to the AI generated podcast on our SoundCloud Page!
Deep dive podcast Notebook information below:
Notebook Summary
The source documents examine the relationship between wisdom and various psychological constructs, including mindfulness, emotional intelligence, civic virtues, and self-transcendent experiences. Several studies are described, some examining the effects of mindfulness training on teachers' wisdom, and others exploring the unique contributions of different psychological states, such as awe and flow, to wise reasoning and epistemic humility. The authors also discuss the potential benefits of studying abroad on the development of civic virtues. Notably, they explore the idea of “artificial wisdom” and the challenges of creating AI systems that can truly mimic human wisdom, highlighting the complexities of modeling human values and emotional intelligence in machines.
Transcript of Podcast:
Speaker 1 Welcome to another deep dive. And today we're tackling wisdom, not the kind you find in dusty old books, though we're talking about wisdom as a skill, something you can actually train.
Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. It's exciting stuff.
Speaker 1 We're going to be looking at the work of the University of Chicago's Center for Practical Wisdom and their founder, Howard Nusbaum. They're approaching wisdom through a scientific lens, which I'm guessing leads to some pretty interesting findings.
Speaker 2 Oh, absolutely. One of the most fascinating things about their work is this idea of wisdom as a practical skill. You can develop it, you know.
Speaker 1 Okay, so we're not talking about like, secluded mountaintops and long white beards here.
Speaker 2 Not necessarily. Nusbaum really emphasizes that wisdom isn't something you're born with. It's this capacity for good judgment, a capacity for wise reasoning, and you can develop that.
Speaker 1 So how do they study something like that? I mean, wisdom seems so, I don't know, elusive.
Speaker 2 Well, they use a variety of methods psychological assessments, behavioral studies, even neuroimaging to see what's going on in the brain when people are making those wise decisions.
Speaker 1 Wow. So they're really peering into the mechanics of wisdom. What kind of discoveries have they made using these methods?
Speaker 2 One study looked at the impact of mindfulness training on elementary school teachers.
Speaker 1 Okay, teachers.
Speaker 2 Think about it. Teachers are constantly making decisions. They have all these interactions with their students. It's a whirlwind of social understanding, emotional regulation.
Speaker 1 It sounds exhausting. It is. And those are qualities we usually associate with wise people. Right.
Speaker 2 Exactly. Being able to navigate complex social situations gracefully with understanding.
Speaker 1 So the researchers wanted to see if something as simple as mindfulness training could actually improve these aspects of wisdom in teachers.
Speaker 2 Exactly. They divided the teachers into two groups. One group got mindfulness training online for six weeks. The other group was put on a wait list. Okay. And the results were pretty remarkable, actually. The teachers who completed the mindfulness training, they showed real improvements in their mindful awareness and in what we call cognitive wisdom.
Speaker 1 On cognitive wisdom. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 Well, it means they're understanding of interpersonal and intrapersonal concerns improved. They were better able to understand themselves and others, which led to better decision making, especially in challenging situations.
Speaker 1 So you're telling me these teachers were able to make wiser choices just by paying attention to their breath?
Speaker 2 Well, it does suggest that mindfulness can have a real impact on wise reasoning and judgment.
Speaker 1 That's pretty incredible. But is this just about teachers or does it apply to everyone?
Speaker 2 Oh, the benefits extend way beyond the classroom. This is about giving people tools to navigate life's complexities.
Speaker 1 It's about more than just managing a classroom full of kids.
Speaker 2 Exactly. And that actually brings us to another study. This one looked at the relationship between ballet training and wisdom. ballet dancers.
Speaker 1 Ballet dancers. Now this. I've got it here.
Speaker 2 This one was particularly interesting. They found that ballet dancers, after years of training, demonstrated higher levels of wisdom than the control groups.
Speaker 1 Really ballet and wisdom. That seems like such a strange connection.
Speaker 2 It might seem counterintuitive, yeah, but when you think about it, it kind of makes sense. Ballet requires so much discipline, self-awareness. It's not just about understanding your own movements, but also being able to interpret the movements of others. Anticipate them.
Speaker 1 Even. You're right. I never thought about it like that. But those are all skills that could lead to wiser decision making, aren't they?
Speaker 2 Exactly.
Speaker 1 So it's not just about reading philosophy or having tons of life experience. You can train your brain for wisdom through things like mindfulness or even ballet.
Speaker 2 Though the research is ongoing. But yeah, it does point to the idea that different experiences and practices can help you become wiser.
Speaker 1 It's about cultivating certain ways of thinking.
Speaker 2 Ways of being in the world.
Speaker 1 That's a really empowering idea. So it's not about being born wise, it's about working towards it.
Speaker 2 Exactly.
Speaker 1 All this talk about training for wisdom, though, makes me wonder can this be applied on a larger scale? Like, can we cultivate wisdom not just in individuals, but an entire organizations or even systems?
Speaker 2 That's a great question. And it leads us to this really fascinating concept institutional wisdom, institutional wisdom. It suggests that organizations can be designed to encourage wiser decision making, even if no single person in the organization is particularly wise themselves.
Speaker 1 Okay, how is that even possible? Are you saying we can, like, build wisdom into the structures of institutions?
Speaker 2 Think of it this way a well-designed system can nudge people toward making good choices, choices that benefit everyone, even if those people aren't consciously trying to be wise.
Speaker 1 Okay, but I need a real world example here.
Speaker 2 Sure. Let's take organ donation. In some countries, you have to explicitly opt in to be an organ donor. In other countries, you're automatically opted in unless you choose to opt out. Okay, and studies show that countries with opt out systems have way higher rates of organ donation.
Speaker 1 Interesting. So the way the system is set up actually influences people's choices, even if they aren't really thinking about it. Thanks to the system itself is promoting a wise outcome.
Speaker 2 It's gently nudging people towards a choice that benefits everyone.
Speaker 1 That's pretty cool. But couldn't that be used to manipulate people too?
Speaker 2 You've hit on a really important point. The ethical implications of institutional wisdom are definitely something researchers are thinking about. Howard Nussbaum, for example. He's even talked about how this concept could apply to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 The Supreme Court, yeah. Are you suggesting we need a court full of super wise judges?
Speaker 2 Not necessarily Supreme Court justices? They are brilliant individuals. But they're still human. They're still influenced by their own experiences, their own perspectives.
Speaker 1 We're all human. We all have biases.
Speaker 2 Exactly. And that's why it's so important to have different perspectives represented on the court. It leads to more balanced decision making wiser outcomes.
Speaker 1 So institutional wisdom in this context would be about having a Supreme Court that reflects the diversity of the society it serves.
Speaker 2 Exactly. Wisdom is about considering multiple perspectives, weighing different values, understanding the broader context.
Speaker 1 This is all so fascinating. I came into this deep dive thinking wisdom was all about ancient philosophers and proverbs, but it's so much more dynamic than that. It's about building skills and even designing systems that promote wise choices.
Speaker 2 And the research is always moving forward. What we're learning today is really just the beginning.
Speaker 1 That makes you wonder what the future holds. What if we could apply these insights to even more areas of society?
Speaker 2 Now that is a fascinating question. It leads to one final, thought provoking concept. We've been talking about this idea of artificial wisdom or AW.
Speaker 1 Artificial wisdom, okay, so we're talking about like creating machines with wisdom.
Speaker 2 That's the idea that.
Speaker 1 Sounds like science fiction.
Speaker 2 It might sound farfetched. Yeah, but it's something that a lot of researchers are starting to explore.
Speaker 1 So how would you even begin to like program wisdom into a machine? I mean, wisdom seems like such a human quality.
Speaker 2 It's definitely complex, no doubt about that. One approach is to try to model the cognitive processes that we associate with wisdom. Things like perspective taking, emotional regulation, the ability to weigh different values and make judgments in situations where you don't have all the information.
Speaker 1 So instead of feeding an AI, a bunch of wise sayings, we're trying to teach it to think like a wise person.
Speaker 2 Essentially. Yeah, but it's not that easy. I mean, for one thing, we're still learning about human wisdom. We don't have all the answers, right? And even if we could perfectly model those processes, there's still the question of values. Who’s values would guide these wise machines?
Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a good point. We wouldn't want AI making decisions based on like, a narrow set of values.
Speaker 2 Exactly. And that's why a lot of researchers think that the development of AW should involve a partnership or a partnership between humans and machines.
Speaker 1 We can learn from each other.
Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 So it's not about replacing human wisdom. It's about augmenting it. Right.
Speaker 2 Working together to make wiser choices.
Speaker 1 For ourselves in the world around us.
Speaker 2 That's the goal.
Speaker 1 This has been an amazing deep dive. I started out thinking wisdom was all about ancient philosophers and proverbs, but you've shown me that it's something much more dynamic, something we can all cultivate both as individuals and as a society.
Speaker 2 And who knows, maybe machines can learn a thing or two about wisdom along the way.
Speaker 1 Thanks for joining us on this exploration of the science of wisdom. It's been an eye opening journey. Until next time, keep those minds curious and those hearts open.
Speaker 2 It really does make you think, doesn't it? What if we could create machines that could actually help us solve some of the biggest problems we're facing?
Speaker 1 Like what kinds of problems?
Speaker 2 Well, think about climate change, poverty, global health crises, AI with practical wisdom, it could analyze huge amounts of data, consider all sorts of different perspectives, and maybe come up with solutions that we haven't even thought of.
Speaker 1 That's incredible. But wouldn't there be risks, too? I mean, we've all seen those movies where the AI gets too smart and, you know, takes over.
Speaker 2 It's a valid concern, and it's something that researchers are taking very seriously. That's why it's so important to develop this technology responsibly, to really think about the ethical implications.
Speaker 1 So we're not just talking about programing code here. We're talking about instilling values, ethics, even a sense of responsibility.
Speaker 2 Exactly. And that's what makes the study of wisdom so essential. It's not just about intelligence or efficiency. It's about understanding what really matters and making choices that lead to a better future for everyone.
Speaker 1 This has been such an amazing deep dive. I started out thinking wisdom was something for like ancient philosophers. Yeah, or maybe a few wise old people.
Speaker 2 Its sages on the mountaintop.
Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. But you've shown me that it's something we can all work towards.
Speaker 2 We can cultivate it in ourselves and in our institutions.
Speaker 1 And maybe even in machines.
Speaker 2 Maybe.
Speaker 1 So thanks for opening my mind to all these possibilities.
Speaker 2 My pleasure.
Speaker 1 And to all our listeners out there. Keep those minds curious and those hearts open.
Sources fed to Notebook:
Boulware, J., Huskey, B., Mangelsdorf, H., & Nusbaum, H. (2019). The Effects of Mindfulness Training on Wisdom in Elementary School Teachers. Journal of Education, Society and Behavioural Science, 30(3), 1-10. https://doi.org/10.9734/jesbs/2019/v30i330129
Boulware, J.N., Kim, Y., Nusbaum, H.C., & Henly, A. (2022). Stranger in a strange land: The role of study abroad in civic virtues, Journal of Moral Education, DOI: 10.1080/03057240.2022.2139668
Kim, Y., Nusbaum, H. C., & Yang, F. (2022). Going beyond ourselves: the role of self-transcendent experiences in wisdom. Cognition and Emotion, 1-19.
Kim, Y., Boulware, J. N., Nusbaum, H. C., & Henly, A. (2024). Civic virtues, wisdom, and psychological resilience in N. E. Snow (Ed). The Self, Civic Virtue, and Public Life (pp 21-36). Routledge.
Nusbaum, H. C. (2020). How to make Artificial Wisdom possible. International Psychogeriatrics, 32(8), 909-911.
Schneider, T. R., Nusbaum, H. C., Kim, Y., Borders, M. R., & Ryan, T. J. (2021). Emotional intelligence predicts wise reasoning. The Journal of Positive Psychology, 1-15.
Sternberg, R. J., Nusbaum, H. C., & Glück, J. (Eds.). (2019). Applying wisdom to contemporary world problems. London: Palgrave Macmillan.
Williams, P. B., & Nusbaum, H. C. (2016). Toward a neuroscience of wisdom. In J. R. Absher & J. Cloutier (Eds.) Neuroimaging, personality, social cognition, and character (pp. 383-395). London, UK: Elsevier.
Included pages as source material:
https://wisdomcenter.uchicago.edu
https://wisdomcenter.uchicago.edu/news/discussions/conversations-wisdom-howard-c-nusbaum
https://wisdomcenter.uchicago.edu/people/howard-c-nusbaum
https://wisdomcenter.uchicago.edu/welcome-center-director-founder
https://wisdomcenter.uchicago.edu/news/discussions/what-psychological-and-social-factors-contribute-development-wisdom
https://evidencebasedwisdom.com/wisdom-profiles-howard-nusbaum/
https://evidencebasedwisdom.com/on-wisdom-podcast-episode-29-charting-pandemic-waters-a-common-wisdom-model-for-uncertain-times-with-howard-nusbaum/
Timeline of Notebook Main Events
This timeline is based on the provided excerpts and focuses on the evolution of wisdom research. As the sources mainly discuss concepts and theories, specific dates are limited.
Ancient Times:
- Unknown Date: Socrates emphasizes awareness of one's knowledge limitations as a key aspect of wisdom.
- Unknown Date: Aristotle defines wisdom as an intellectual virtue involving practical decisions leading to human flourishing (phronêsis). He distinguishes between practical wisdom gained through experience and general wisdom attributed to a god-like entity.
Modern Times:
- 1980: Clayton and Birren reexamine the concept of wisdom development across the lifespan.
- 1990: Baltes and Smith propose a psychological framework for understanding wisdom and its development.
- 2000: Baltes and Staudinger describe wisdom as a "metaheuristic" for orchestrating mind and virtue towards excellence.
- 2003: Ardelt develops the Three-Dimensional Wisdom Scale (3D-WS) measuring cognitive, reflective, and affective dimensions of wisdom.
- 2008: Baltes and Smith further explore the nature, ontogeny, and function of wisdom.
- 2009: Meeks and Jeste publish a seminal overview of the neurobiology of wisdom, highlighting its unique psychological characteristics.
- 2013: Sanders and Jeste delve into the neurobiological basis of personal wisdom.
- 2020: Grossmann et al. outline a framework for understanding practical wisdom, emphasizing its social aspects and concern for others.
- 2022: Kim, Nusbaum, and Yang explore the role of self-transcendent experiences, particularly awe and flow, in facilitating wisdom as measured by wise reasoning and epistemic humility.
Ongoing:
- Research continues to investigate the relationship between wisdom and other psychological constructs such as emotional intelligence, mindfulness, and civic virtues.
- Neuroscientists continue to explore the neural correlates of wisdom, aiming to understand its biological underpinnings.
- There is growing interest in applying wisdom research to practical domains like education, healthcare, and artificial intelligence.
Cast of Characters
Ancient Philosophers:
- Socrates: A classical Greek philosopher credited as one of the founders of Western philosophy. He emphasized self-awareness and knowledge limitations as crucial for wisdom.
- Aristotle: A Greek philosopher and polymath, a student of Plato. He defined wisdom as an intellectual virtue linked to practical decision-making for human flourishing and distinguished different types of wisdom.
Modern Researchers:
- Paul Baltes: A German psychologist who pioneered research on lifespan development and wisdom. He proposed a psychological framework for studying wisdom and its development.
- Ursula M. Staudinger: A German psychologist known for her work on wisdom, intelligence, and lifespan development. She collaborated extensively with Baltes on wisdom research.
- Monica Ardelt: A sociologist specializing in aging, wisdom, and spirituality. She developed the Three-Dimensional Wisdom Scale (3D-WS) to measure cognitive, reflective, and affective aspects of wisdom.
- Dilip V. Jeste: A psychiatrist and neuroscientist specializing in aging, wisdom, and resilience. He has made significant contributions to understanding the neurobiology of wisdom.
- Thomas W. Meeks: A neuroscientist known for his work on the neurobiology of wisdom and aging.
- J. David Sanders: A neuroscientist specializing in the biological basis of personality and wisdom.
- Igor Grossmann: A psychologist focusing on wisdom, cultural psychology, and well-being. He has developed a framework for understanding practical wisdom, emphasizing its social dimension.
- Yena Kim: A researcher at the University of Chicago studying wisdom, self-transcendence, and positive emotions.
- Howard C. Nusbaum: A cognitive neuroscientist at the University of Chicago studying auditory perception, language, and wisdom. He has conducted research on the relationship between wisdom and attention, self-transcendence, and epistemic humility.
- Fan Yang: A researcher who has collaborated with Kim and Nusbaum on studying the role of self-transcendent experiences in wisdom.
- Valerie Tiberius: A philosopher who has developed a theory of wisdom that is closely aligned with psychological research. She emphasizes the role of values in shaping wise decision-making.
- Jean Ngoc Boulware: A researcher specializing in the development and measurement of wisdom, particularly in relation to civic virtues and psychological resilience.
Other:
- Sir John Templeton: A prominent investor, businessman, and philanthropist who established the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research on topics including wisdom and spirituality.
- Berthold Hoeckner: A professor who collaborated with Nusbaum and Henly on a course exploring the concept of wisdom.
- Ann Henly: A researcher specializing in the development of wisdom and its relationship to civic virtues and resilience.
This cast of characters represents key individuals who have contributed to the understanding of wisdom. Their work spans philosophy, psychology, neuroscience, and other fields, highlighting the interdisciplinary nature of wisdom research.
